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	<title>Comments on: where are we and where do we want to be?</title>
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	<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/</link>
	<description>for workers&#039; self-management and communism from below</description>
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		<title>By: Benoit Douchy</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11215</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Benoit Douchy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 14:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The project approach takes the company as the unit of analysis of capital, which it takes as a social relation, in particular, as a project. That is, a unit of capital is a kind of project whose aim is the expansion of a unit of capital by means of putting it into circulation and withdrawing it for a profit. But companies (in the broad sense) are far from being the only projects active in economic life and have an internal life of their own which is not based on the ethic of exchange. There are three basic forms of collaboration which constitute labour activity as projects.

Command: this is the dominant relationship existing within a company (or not-for-profit project), constituting its line management tree. The stream of command begins with a Board of Directors or CEO and flows along with funds down the tree to the ‘coal face’ employees. Command is a strong archetypal form of project collaboration which has characterised projects from nation-states to families down the centuries. It is a limiting case of collaboration: a non-collaborative form of collaboration.

Exchange: this is the dominant relationship in the marketplace, but is increasingly found within commercial projects with the use of one-line budgeting, out-sourcing, franchising and so on. This is the other limiting, non-collaborative form of collaboration in which each party retain their independence and formal equality through control of the relationship through payment. Command flows in one direction and money in the other, but the parties retain their freedom to leave the collaboration.

Collaboration: this is the relationship which predominates among the productive employees of a company as well as within the ‘directing mind’ of a company. In both case, ‘working together’, consultation, sharing work and attribution are the norms. Profit-making companies rely on the collaborative labour not only of their employees during working hours, but on working class communities who collaboratively produce the labour power made available for exploitation. 

In the economy, command and collaboration are subsumed under exchange, while within companies, collaboration is subsumed under command. A complete picture of economic activity is possible only by recognising the mutual subsumption of these three modes of collaboration, including both normative collaboration and ‘non-collaborative’ forms of collaboration, which are normative within hierarchical organisations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The project approach takes the company as the unit of analysis of capital, which it takes as a social relation, in particular, as a project. That is, a unit of capital is a kind of project whose aim is the expansion of a unit of capital by means of putting it into circulation and withdrawing it for a profit. But companies (in the broad sense) are far from being the only projects active in economic life and have an internal life of their own which is not based on the ethic of exchange. There are three basic forms of collaboration which constitute labour activity as projects.</p>
<p>Command: this is the dominant relationship existing within a company (or not-for-profit project), constituting its line management tree. The stream of command begins with a Board of Directors or CEO and flows along with funds down the tree to the ‘coal face’ employees. Command is a strong archetypal form of project collaboration which has characterised projects from nation-states to families down the centuries. It is a limiting case of collaboration: a non-collaborative form of collaboration.</p>
<p>Exchange: this is the dominant relationship in the marketplace, but is increasingly found within commercial projects with the use of one-line budgeting, out-sourcing, franchising and so on. This is the other limiting, non-collaborative form of collaboration in which each party retain their independence and formal equality through control of the relationship through payment. Command flows in one direction and money in the other, but the parties retain their freedom to leave the collaboration.</p>
<p>Collaboration: this is the relationship which predominates among the productive employees of a company as well as within the ‘directing mind’ of a company. In both case, ‘working together’, consultation, sharing work and attribution are the norms. Profit-making companies rely on the collaborative labour not only of their employees during working hours, but on working class communities who collaboratively produce the labour power made available for exploitation. </p>
<p>In the economy, command and collaboration are subsumed under exchange, while within companies, collaboration is subsumed under command. A complete picture of economic activity is possible only by recognising the mutual subsumption of these three modes of collaboration, including both normative collaboration and ‘non-collaborative’ forms of collaboration, which are normative within hierarchical organisations.</p>
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		<title>By: Benoit Douchy</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11214</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Benoit Douchy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 14:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i just stumbled on this website wich i allready came upon several times through libcom...I share some concerns and am very sympathetic to the aim of commune, but i live in Belgium. 

I don&#039;t know if anyone&#039;s of your network is familiar with the work of andy blunden? I find his work very claryfying in this matter and he has done great work on Hegel&#039;s logic. I share the link here to his forms of radical subjectivity and project as an interdisciplinairy concept:

http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/radical-subjectivity.htm
http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/project-interdisciplinary.htm

anyway, i&#039;m not a forum-writer in any sense but i just thought i could give some food for thought if you guys don&#039;t know him. I found it very helpfull to get things clearer about subjectivity and the situation wich exists today...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i just stumbled on this website wich i allready came upon several times through libcom&#8230;I share some concerns and am very sympathetic to the aim of commune, but i live in Belgium. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if anyone&#8217;s of your network is familiar with the work of andy blunden? I find his work very claryfying in this matter and he has done great work on Hegel&#8217;s logic. I share the link here to his forms of radical subjectivity and project as an interdisciplinairy concept:</p>
<p><a href="http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/radical-subjectivity.htm" rel="nofollow">http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/radical-subjectivity.htm</a><br />
<a href="http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/project-interdisciplinary.htm" rel="nofollow">http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/project-interdisciplinary.htm</a></p>
<p>anyway, i&#8217;m not a forum-writer in any sense but i just thought i could give some food for thought if you guys don&#8217;t know him. I found it very helpfull to get things clearer about subjectivity and the situation wich exists today&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Roberts</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11151</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, but I&#039;m afraid I can&#039;t resist apologising for being an inappropriate priority Baz - I&#039;ll try to do better in future.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, but I&#8217;m afraid I can&#8217;t resist apologising for being an inappropriate priority Baz &#8211; I&#8217;ll try to do better in future.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For  your information Martin, the platform came first and the network not national organisation/group/party came next. Its a loose national network. people joined or supported the platform network on the politics which were anti state against the labour party, state socialism, against Stalinism, outside Trotskyism, for workers democracy at the grass roots,not &#039;Democratic centralism,&#039; rank and file and independent organisation rather than  reforming Trade union structures ,and so on. Without the Platform and the politics associated with it there would have been no commune. 

I made the same point about the doorstep in Bradford. But inviting Ian to make comments on the commune, after one meeting, five months after the meeting does show the wrong priorities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For  your information Martin, the platform came first and the network not national organisation/group/party came next. Its a loose national network. people joined or supported the platform network on the politics which were anti state against the labour party, state socialism, against Stalinism, outside Trotskyism, for workers democracy at the grass roots,not &#8216;Democratic centralism,&#8217; rank and file and independent organisation rather than  reforming Trade union structures ,and so on. Without the Platform and the politics associated with it there would have been no commune. </p>
<p>I made the same point about the doorstep in Bradford. But inviting Ian to make comments on the commune, after one meeting, five months after the meeting does show the wrong priorities.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Roberts</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11107</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Grateful for your comments, Martin - and you are right about Barry and my conversation. Apologies. I also think your third option makes sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grateful for your comments, Martin &#8211; and you are right about Barry and my conversation. Apologies. I also think your third option makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Ollie S</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11094</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ollie S]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2012 02:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;When I referred to a teacher pupil relationship, Barry, I was referring to your comments and, by extension, to the problem of how people of the left relate to those in struggle. Whatever we – in whatever terms – have been doing for the last forty years has, to be blunt, resulted in failure and, currently, apparent impotence. We have to relate to others differently – staring with where they are – and learn from them in order to become more successful.&#039;

The failure of the Left is down to two things, neither of which are exemplified by the Commune. 
The first is that the working class in this country have such a weak/non-existent tradition of struggle, that they are barely receptive to anti-capitalist ideas. Most of them just aren&#039;t interested in the first place - no matter how much good stuff the Left does, we&#039;re performing in front of a tough crowd. This isn&#039;t our fault and should not be seen as *our* failure - rather extremely tough operating conditions imposed by neoliberalism and a working class with a conservative history (dating back to roughly 1848).
The second is that most of the Left still advocates the Labour Party to varying extents. The Labour Party is a nicer form of capitalism. It is not anti-capitalist and can in no way breed ideas of an alternative. Voting for it actually retards working class action (in the workplace or wherever) because it makes people feel they&#039;ve achieved something politically. It&#039;s a reliance on leadership to act for the working class - not the working class realising its agency and through that building ideas of an alternative, democratic society (as has been done in for example, Spain in the 30s). So, after advocating Labour for the last forty years, Left groups (Militant, SWP, AWL, CPGB, etc) fail to build any ideas of an alternative; the failure of the Left, and the working class politically understanding only Labour, is hence no surprise. It&#039;s not a failure of groups like the Commune who are against Labour and the general denial of working class agency.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;When I referred to a teacher pupil relationship, Barry, I was referring to your comments and, by extension, to the problem of how people of the left relate to those in struggle. Whatever we – in whatever terms – have been doing for the last forty years has, to be blunt, resulted in failure and, currently, apparent impotence. We have to relate to others differently – staring with where they are – and learn from them in order to become more successful.&#8217;</p>
<p>The failure of the Left is down to two things, neither of which are exemplified by the Commune.<br />
The first is that the working class in this country have such a weak/non-existent tradition of struggle, that they are barely receptive to anti-capitalist ideas. Most of them just aren&#8217;t interested in the first place &#8211; no matter how much good stuff the Left does, we&#8217;re performing in front of a tough crowd. This isn&#8217;t our fault and should not be seen as *our* failure &#8211; rather extremely tough operating conditions imposed by neoliberalism and a working class with a conservative history (dating back to roughly 1848).<br />
The second is that most of the Left still advocates the Labour Party to varying extents. The Labour Party is a nicer form of capitalism. It is not anti-capitalist and can in no way breed ideas of an alternative. Voting for it actually retards working class action (in the workplace or wherever) because it makes people feel they&#8217;ve achieved something politically. It&#8217;s a reliance on leadership to act for the working class &#8211; not the working class realising its agency and through that building ideas of an alternative, democratic society (as has been done in for example, Spain in the 30s). So, after advocating Labour for the last forty years, Left groups (Militant, SWP, AWL, CPGB, etc) fail to build any ideas of an alternative; the failure of the Left, and the working class politically understanding only Labour, is hence no surprise. It&#8217;s not a failure of groups like the Commune who are against Labour and the general denial of working class agency.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 14:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh dear! I have read all of that and it was more depressing than edifying. It is not the first time and won&#039;t be the last that an article of this nature has descended into a &#039;conversation&#039; in which the participants ended up not listening to each other first before replying. I leave it to the psychologists and counsellors out there to unpick what went on.

In general terms, my sympathies lie mostly with Ian, though I am pretty sure that Barry also relates to Ian&#039;s concerns and this got lost somewhere. I have wondered whether there is any benefit in trying to construct a &#039;platform&#039; at all out of a small group of activists who are able to get together, intermittently, sometimes with different people involved. I have also wondered whether there is any point at all in trying to construct a national &#039;organisation&#039; as opposed to a looser affinity network. I have wondered whether or not what Ian is looking for is better achieved by concentrating on your own doorstep and on rebuilding the movement around concrete issues and ways to deal with them. I still don&#039;t have any answers to these questions, but my tendency is to look to the third option if only because it is more practicable to get involved in an effective and communicative way at the grassroots.

All ways of working have their problems, but fighting over abstract platforms is the least useful. Equally useless are splits, such as the latest one in the Anarchist Federation. I remember back in the early 70s trying to get the &#039;left libertarian&#039; milieu to talk to each other for the same reason put forward by Ian. Sadly nothing much has changed, except that there are now movements who deliberately shy away from organisations that try to construct &#039;the right way forward&#039;. Don&#039;t give up Ian!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear! I have read all of that and it was more depressing than edifying. It is not the first time and won&#8217;t be the last that an article of this nature has descended into a &#8216;conversation&#8217; in which the participants ended up not listening to each other first before replying. I leave it to the psychologists and counsellors out there to unpick what went on.</p>
<p>In general terms, my sympathies lie mostly with Ian, though I am pretty sure that Barry also relates to Ian&#8217;s concerns and this got lost somewhere. I have wondered whether there is any benefit in trying to construct a &#8216;platform&#8217; at all out of a small group of activists who are able to get together, intermittently, sometimes with different people involved. I have also wondered whether there is any point at all in trying to construct a national &#8216;organisation&#8217; as opposed to a looser affinity network. I have wondered whether or not what Ian is looking for is better achieved by concentrating on your own doorstep and on rebuilding the movement around concrete issues and ways to deal with them. I still don&#8217;t have any answers to these questions, but my tendency is to look to the third option if only because it is more practicable to get involved in an effective and communicative way at the grassroots.</p>
<p>All ways of working have their problems, but fighting over abstract platforms is the least useful. Equally useless are splits, such as the latest one in the Anarchist Federation. I remember back in the early 70s trying to get the &#8216;left libertarian&#8217; milieu to talk to each other for the same reason put forward by Ian. Sadly nothing much has changed, except that there are now movements who deliberately shy away from organisations that try to construct &#8216;the right way forward&#8217;. Don&#8217;t give up Ian!</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Roberts</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11060</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11060</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not in a position to teach the left anything and don&#039;t presume to be, but I am interested in exploring at why we have failed so signally to engage with those in struggle over the last forty years and how to change that. Unlike the emails you refer to, this is a practical issue - but it you feel it will have little interest for others and don&#039;t wish to pursue it then, obviously, it isn&#039;t for me to try to gainsay you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not in a position to teach the left anything and don&#8217;t presume to be, but I am interested in exploring at why we have failed so signally to engage with those in struggle over the last forty years and how to change that. Unlike the emails you refer to, this is a practical issue &#8211; but it you feel it will have little interest for others and don&#8217;t wish to pursue it then, obviously, it isn&#8217;t for me to try to gainsay you.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11059</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 06:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11059</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ian,you were supposed to be giving your thoughts on the commune not on me. You aim to teach the left how to relate to people differently. In this case you have fallen from your high standards. I think we should draw a line under the discussion which is beginning to resemble those e mail discussions you dislike. And we have got to the point where the discussion will have little interest for the general visitor to the site.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian,you were supposed to be giving your thoughts on the commune not on me. You aim to teach the left how to relate to people differently. In this case you have fallen from your high standards. I think we should draw a line under the discussion which is beginning to resemble those e mail discussions you dislike. And we have got to the point where the discussion will have little interest for the general visitor to the site.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Roberts</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11057</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 00:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11057</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What was it Humpty Dumpty said? I think it was something along the lines that the issue wasn&#039;t the words but the meaning he applied to them that made him master.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What was it Humpty Dumpty said? I think it was something along the lines that the issue wasn&#8217;t the words but the meaning he applied to them that made him master.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11052</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ian,  the current programme/platform was cobbled together out of comments made by three comrades(including myself) from an earlier discussion some time before you joined the commune. There have been  a number of attempts to reformulate the programme, again before you joined. I made this point to the comrade (not from Bradford) who submitted the platform,which was considered at the Leeds aggregate. This resulted in some weaknesses in the platform, in my view. I do not understand why you jump to the conclusion that this well used phrase is some kind of slur on your self and other Bradford comrades. Nor do I know what planning the meeting entailed. It did not involve submitting a platform or constitution, since three comrades(including myself) who were not from Bradford/Leeds, put different constitutions and platforms. I assume that all the submissions were considered at your planning meetings.As for my comment about Mao. You used the word shibboleth in relation to the platform, a word used by another Bradford comrade in the same context and I assumed you had followed the e mail thread but obviously not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian,  the current programme/platform was cobbled together out of comments made by three comrades(including myself) from an earlier discussion some time before you joined the commune. There have been  a number of attempts to reformulate the programme, again before you joined. I made this point to the comrade (not from Bradford) who submitted the platform,which was considered at the Leeds aggregate. This resulted in some weaknesses in the platform, in my view. I do not understand why you jump to the conclusion that this well used phrase is some kind of slur on your self and other Bradford comrades. Nor do I know what planning the meeting entailed. It did not involve submitting a platform or constitution, since three comrades(including myself) who were not from Bradford/Leeds, put different constitutions and platforms. I assume that all the submissions were considered at your planning meetings.As for my comment about Mao. You used the word shibboleth in relation to the platform, a word used by another Bradford comrade in the same context and I assumed you had followed the e mail thread but obviously not.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Roberts</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11049</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 14:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11049</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also think it offensively patronising and uncomradely of you to describe the current &#039;shibboleth&#039; as having been &#039;cobbled together shortly before Leeds&#039;.
I was involved in planning Leeds and I can assure you that it was nothing of the kind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think it offensively patronising and uncomradely of you to describe the current &#8216;shibboleth&#8217; as having been &#8216;cobbled together shortly before Leeds&#8217;.<br />
I was involved in planning Leeds and I can assure you that it was nothing of the kind.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Roberts</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11048</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 14:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11048</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I referred to a teacher pupil relationship, Barry, I was referring to your comments and, by extension, to the problem of how people of the left relate to those in struggle. Whatever we - in whatever terms - have been doing for the last forty years has, to be blunt, resulted in failure and, currently, apparent impotence. We have to relate to others differently - staring with where they are - and learn from them in order to become more successful.

I don&#039;t feel let down by Commune locally. I made my misgivings about the email traffic after the Leeds Aggregate clear the following month and others may quite reasonably have taken that to indicate I had no time for Commune in the future. It also coincided with me starting a new writing project of my own - and probably with other local acquaintances having their own priorities at the time. The Bradford Branch and its members still have my complete respect and I wasn&#039;t trying to point a finger at them. I didn&#039;t hear anything from Commune at any level.

I&#039;m afraid your second paragraph is beyond me and, I have to say, couched in terms that I think exemplify some of my misgivings. I doubt if the unemployed of Bradford - or anywhere else - see their situation in terms of either Marx or Mao. The key issue is to learn how they do feel about it and work with them from there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I referred to a teacher pupil relationship, Barry, I was referring to your comments and, by extension, to the problem of how people of the left relate to those in struggle. Whatever we &#8211; in whatever terms &#8211; have been doing for the last forty years has, to be blunt, resulted in failure and, currently, apparent impotence. We have to relate to others differently &#8211; staring with where they are &#8211; and learn from them in order to become more successful.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t feel let down by Commune locally. I made my misgivings about the email traffic after the Leeds Aggregate clear the following month and others may quite reasonably have taken that to indicate I had no time for Commune in the future. It also coincided with me starting a new writing project of my own &#8211; and probably with other local acquaintances having their own priorities at the time. The Bradford Branch and its members still have my complete respect and I wasn&#8217;t trying to point a finger at them. I didn&#8217;t hear anything from Commune at any level.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid your second paragraph is beyond me and, I have to say, couched in terms that I think exemplify some of my misgivings. I doubt if the unemployed of Bradford &#8211; or anywhere else &#8211; see their situation in terms of either Marx or Mao. The key issue is to learn how they do feel about it and work with them from there.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://thecommune.co.uk/2012/07/07/where-are-we-and-where-do-we-want-to-be/#comment-11044</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 07:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecommune.co.uk/?p=8133#comment-11044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ian, I take your point that that you have only been contacted and invited to generalise about the commune following one meeting. The obvious question is why there was no attempt to  involve you in a  more positive engagement with the commune . Why no meetings for you to attend in Bradford. Why no joint political work in the area? There does seem to be opportunities in Bradford/Leeds Area and from the evidence of the Aggregate in Leeds a number of comrades available to make collective work possible. Your views on the left would be useful to the position that we do not engage with the left. But your view that the left should get together,expressing the workers wish for unity does not fit into the view that the left represents nothing why bother with them. Certainly the commune seems to have failed you, rather than any failing on your part.  

Obviously from your comments you are not a pupil. And how could you be a pupil of a school following one lesson! But seriously, your point about shibboleths does echo a recent debate in the commune. The programme does reject &quot;state socialism&quot; This is not an old shibboleth, but is about the nature and meaning of socialism/communism. Why change this programme for Mao and Chinese nationalism. What possible meaning could liberating the Chinese peasantry in the 1930&#039;s from rival nationalists,Japanese occupation and unpatriotic landlords and setting up the state exploitation of the Chinese working class have for the unemployed of Bradford? Marx or Mao? I think we know the answer. The programme of the commune is not a new shibboleth either. We have changed it a number of time&#039;s. I voted against the current version, which was cobbled together shortly before the Leeds aggregate, so its not a shibboleth for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian, I take your point that that you have only been contacted and invited to generalise about the commune following one meeting. The obvious question is why there was no attempt to  involve you in a  more positive engagement with the commune . Why no meetings for you to attend in Bradford. Why no joint political work in the area? There does seem to be opportunities in Bradford/Leeds Area and from the evidence of the Aggregate in Leeds a number of comrades available to make collective work possible. Your views on the left would be useful to the position that we do not engage with the left. But your view that the left should get together,expressing the workers wish for unity does not fit into the view that the left represents nothing why bother with them. Certainly the commune seems to have failed you, rather than any failing on your part.  </p>
<p>Obviously from your comments you are not a pupil. And how could you be a pupil of a school following one lesson! But seriously, your point about shibboleths does echo a recent debate in the commune. The programme does reject &#8220;state socialism&#8221; This is not an old shibboleth, but is about the nature and meaning of socialism/communism. Why change this programme for Mao and Chinese nationalism. What possible meaning could liberating the Chinese peasantry in the 1930&#8242;s from rival nationalists,Japanese occupation and unpatriotic landlords and setting up the state exploitation of the Chinese working class have for the unemployed of Bradford? Marx or Mao? I think we know the answer. The programme of the commune is not a new shibboleth either. We have changed it a number of time&#8217;s. I voted against the current version, which was cobbled together shortly before the Leeds aggregate, so its not a shibboleth for me.</p>
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